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Unofficial Mid-split Awards | EUphoria Season 4 Episode 6



hello and welcome to season 4 episode 6 of euphoria Daniel Drake is is on vacation so I'm Indiana Frost and black I'll be hosting this week's episode now reminder that you can access you for a weekly night on iTunes SoundCloud Spotify and YouTube this week we've got the band back together as I'm joined by the LEC color casters Andrew Vettius day hello and Christy ander Frierson hello now these lovely gents will be awarding some mid spot Awards updating our team power rankings and having a frank discussion about color casting versus analysis the big one and without further ado we are gonna jump right into the deep end and we are going to be giving away our totally very serious and mid split Awards and how this works is we have MVP most improved and currently undecided hopefully by the time we get to that one we've decided what we're going with figuring out as we go very professional here just like our pipe cleaner awards for a lovely producer who made them so gentlemen first up MVP for summer split we're mid split so who is our most valuable player I mean if we have to call it right now my vote is gonna be on Brock's ax yep all writers turn first there's Brock see here's Brock's rock side no player has had as much impact in their team's game this split as Brock's ax I think he's just had an incredible split and yes wait everyone's gonna remember the two games where he alongside the rest of fnatic just hard ran it down but like those two games were sort of a blip on the radar and if you look at the season holistically even with those two games I think he's had a phenomenal year okay so now Vettius the point was Baraka has more impact on his team's victories than any other player in our league fnatic are one of our top teams and outside of recency bias where he hard ran it down Brock's ax has been very consistent because fanatics still one of our top teams you're a counterpoint no that's that's a fair argument I'd no counterpoint I struggle to give him MVP when perhaps I put more weight into the impact of what Yanko says as a Joan Rivers where he does because I was thinking a lot last night about just in bed yeah our top three junglers actually so what I think about my three junglers and so in my opinion it's a boxer and yang Coast inspired at number four well no it's irrelevant anyway we're gonna talk about four we're gonna talk about the three for now and I would describe Zhu se as the brains Brock set is brawn and Yankers has a combination of the two and what I mean by that is Zeus aise was the heart what I mean by that is as I say in my opinion a lot of what he does goes unnoticed by fans because he's not flashy but he is very intelligent in way he paths what he's doing on the map and how he controls the pace of the game right whereas Brock sir I feel like a lot of his impact is very felt because he comes into a game with a game plan and he's very good at executing upon his game plan so his ganks are often very good like a lot of what he does is done very well but I don't think that there's a huge amount of adaptation and thought in the moment I feel like that a lot of what he does is just great execution whines okay and so like that's why I call him the bran because he's really good at getting what he wants to do done or as Irsay is more of the brains because he's always thinking about how to change how to adapt what can I do in this situation in that and then yang cos I think has become this balance between the two where because he's an environment like g2 where he's become very smart about the game he's thought a lot about what the enemy jungler is doing how he can react and also his players are crazy so he needs to be able to adapt on the fly to be able to control whatever his players are doing but he's also encouraged to be a free spirit and channel his own inner creativity because that's what g2 is all about just so a battle off boy yeah just so like I feel like he's in an environment where he's allowed to be these two things which is why yang coos for me is a strong candidate for MVP because he's evolved into this plant that is this combination of the two and I don't think that like g2 as a team could function as well without him as them inch pin the guy that's willing to play any champion for the sake of his team the guy that has showcased phenomenal growth in both his understanding of the game and his actual mechanics and execution and basically I think that he is really important to that team so basically you guys took our two top teams in fnatic and g2 not necessarily by standings but I think by everyone's conversation and you both grabbed their junglers conversation guys like tops guys like perks guys like Mickey basically all of g2 then maybe you go out to Cersei on splice maybe you can even try to make a case for humanoid given a couple more weeks could be that in what the 3-4 weeks that we have left humanoid starts popping off and supplies between the first team and then suddenly he starts at a front-runner there so do you guys think that why are you guys going for junglers is there anyone missing from this conversation perks and Mickey are definitely the two that I really really really want to give an MVP to then why don't you give it to them because I can't give it to a duo and we could give it to anyone that's true I mean cuz like that duo is so good now it's actually unbelievable how strong that they're like in my opinion one of the most consistent features of g2 the fact that they're they're so good they're so smart like I'm such a big fan boy of that duo when anyone talks about g2 it usually always starts with caps and yank O's and it never starts with perks and you know they are such a stable feature but they're not like the you know when you walk into a house and there's like a beautiful like banister a fireplace or some sort of like focal point that everyone's like this is the main center feature the house I have a swimming pool in the middle of my goddamn house perks and make you're not that swimming no but like a really nice action they're not like the primary feature it's funny too cuz like every once in a while you'll have someone that walks into that house and they appreciate the art and that's the game where perches playing SIA and he has 500 CS he's like solo single handedly solo carrying the game but you don't always get the person that appreciates that aspect of the tape it's it's it's fascinating because why had a really good conversation with a couple coaches now analyst recently about perks specifically and one thing I was giving handsomer criticism for was that he relies a lot on his ATK on his support in order to succeed and then the counterpoint was isn't that pretty much every ad carry and then I thought more about it and when you think about it a lot of ad carries are determined by how strong their support is then what about a guy like Cobb a like even call they I think North's care and his whole held him back for a long time I would agree that like the skill disparity between our experience disparity between carpet and North Karen so yeah if you're then crediting a lot of success to ad carry's by their support which I think the long-term point is this is that perks doesn't lie that's what I also agree with but then if we're talking about MVP candidates I don't necessarily think that Kaba is up there even though he's had a very consistent split he is dealing with not dealings that puts North's guard down but he is playing with a very young inexperienced support in Norse can I hear that there's some stage-fright issues as well so trying to get like North Karen scrim persona on to stage like sometimes we do see those pop off games or you kind of see behind the curtain you're like okay you know that's what splice sees in a player like North Karen that he can have those big moments but wise Cobb a they never recognize as kind of the ADC who if you gave him Mickey like think of the damage he could do this I used to have Mickey they made it to a final they did again that team made it to worlds and they made it to like if they well I mean they did try to stay together longer and it didn't work out quick tangent on that team going to world so by the way and I've never said this publicly but in 2016 when spice went to worlds worlds were held in North America yeah and I was just you know minding my own business playing some master soloqueue and this this drought rolls into rolls into my game called splice hew like the name humongous turns out it was it was Mickey in my games I added him on to my friends list he accepted and we had like a long conversation and I was like I'm a Mickey fan from now on that's cool what a bizarre story full circle back to Brock sit because I still think he's number one so a couple things from like your your argument against him was that like you couldn't adapt on the fly as quick as quick rather as someone like yank owes but I look back to like last split right and there was a game where he was playing Nocturne and he just leveled tudo vault Lane it was helium Gallery thing that was last fun it's the most clear example of you haven't he has never practiced level 2 dives on doctor like I don't think you ever oh I don't think you ever do that's like that's something you come up with in the moment that I think is really cool being like that's execution and that's planned and I'm sitting there thinking he's in the game they're like we want to dive boat level two and he makes these things happen yeah and that is what in my opinion makes him so good not his like cerebral think you know sure but what I'm saying is that that's not a plan that you like pick up in scrims right I don't think at least that you practice that and maybe you come up that with like at the end of Draft you've got that's the play we're going to make but ultimately like that is quick adaptation to me in my mind and we appreciate the art and con right perks and Mickey on this I want to put pokes and Mickey make two people on an MVP award yeah oh my god you're drawing it in its to be a reason why cap should be MVP should we don't get flamed in the comment you shouldn't be like how you shouldn't be caps is great and like I admit that this team you guys are just exhausted by how good caps is that's too that's too with the crowd just like scary it's so the the argument always gets used for MVP is if you remove this piece from the team would they be as good as they are problem is if you remove any piece from G to that team's not as good as it is right right we have we said it like caps on any team and make it better I mean yes you put every well laying on any team and you could do the same thing yeah but that's I mean this is permanent marker it's already on I like the fact of giving perks and Mickey their time of spotlight because I believe that cats will probably get MVP of summer just maybe bold calls also how can one player be better than two players final he killed two players as one okay Tuesday most improved now the trophy says improved again this is for summer split so don't be bringing your logic about nocturne dives at level two from oh you mean so from beginning of yes this one because the last time I was on euphoria I had some very strong words for a certain player in our league humanoid yeah because as that taste now well no so here's thing tastes pretty bad because he's real good um but ultimately like looking back on it his first two weeks were not that great right well very low impact in his games and yes like you make the argument he was on like more split push type champions but he wasn't drawing a lot of pressure and he had like very low like participation kills and all that stuff the last three weeks he's absolutely been on fire I think like everyone looks back to the Kiana game it's like one of the most memorable up against fnatic and getting that win and he was a huge reason why they got that win in the end but I just think his play has improved drastically and we're seeing him on Champions they get a lot more attention and I just think there's no other player that's gone from you know what he looked like in the first few weeks to what he looks like now so human rights a pretty easy one I think the other ones that are easy to grab are guys like a dog a I think nemesis is also a dog I think he came into the split looking good so if your argument was from not looking at last foot that and we're only looking at within this split then I would say that I would a guy like came in strong has looked better and I think that's thanks to the introduction of trick so I agree that I think I'm a dog he's a lot better but I can't say that from beginning to split – now we've seen group Lawson would be the one for me that I'm like he's another player who I think at the beginning of the split showcased like a lot of stage fright and was like getting used to playing on stage and then in recent weeks we've been seeing him we perform exceptionally well he seems like that consistent reliable mid laner that a lot of people praised and talked about coming in but yeah I agree very much with the humanoid thing are we so long humanoid yeah hmm in terms of growth I mean I'm I'm writing it so yeah yeah I'm just other teams SK misfits rogue vitality Origen Schalke splice fnatic those are our 10 teams yes I'm seeing that thing it was so like I shout the name at and then in my head I remember the roster and so I'm like ok nemesis would be the only other one in my heads that you have to give an order but even then I feel like it's more of a similar situation yeah it's a between space between splits right we got one last award it's a blank award originally we were going to do best team but like it wasn't that compelling cuz it's just cheesy right yes so do we want to do best runner-up I mean I want to pitch best returning caster but I don't know I'm just trying to think of like some of the awards because like coach is always hard because we never get to see behind the scenes stuff ok I've got it I've got it and I know Frost who's gonna have my side on this ok best shoe game single-player no skerin exactly I can't contribute that conversation I don't even look at my own shoes off the time let alone anybody else's ok what about like I want to do something that's not obvious so like runner up speaks to me because I want to have technically I want to have a conversation about like splice or even something good to do with the new misfits roster like I'd like to give some sort of celebration or honorable shout out to those guys what about biggest surprise then oh boom nailed it hold on I gotta spell it talk about your biggest surprise what's your big surprise vetti was your idea I think rogue would have been my biggest surprise I thought the beginning of the split they wouldn't make any change no surprise yes you are yep sir and they you don't say sir because that's si are and then / and then so surprise surprise is an S I like rogue yeah rogue was surprising to me because now all I can think of is rise like the song or the champion rogue is with super compelling to me because coming into this bit I was like this team it's not gonna be any better they're just gonna be in like ninth eighth place why should I be impressed like sure they've got they've got loss and inspired who might be good but profit hasn't been good in our league for like quite a long time and I don't think he's necessarily gonna get much better than what he's asked and that botlane is wool light and Vander and rogue no matter how much you tell me that war light is the godsend I looked into his just some of his laning stats and currently he's one of our worst performing ad carries in the league so I wasn't super convinced there's an issue where you look at a lot of rogues roster and you have unknown names you have no idea how to quantify that and then you have names that it feels like have been quantified I like the idea of like you know this is their return their comeback the rise I love a good comeback so I am all ready to jump aboard like the underdog hype train like have his rocky eighties moment montage warlike rips off I don't know whose jumpers he's like running up the stairs and like out plays blippo I'm like a crazy rank I play like give me more of that but until then it's just super hard to rank rogue coming in because you feel like you've already seen that this is a you know CTR team that probably might hit b-tier moments but that will probably be it yeah and they've been surprising because they've been it's it's funny because they be origin fanatic and then the arguments that some fans will use or even some analysts will sit there and go while the other teams lost rather than rogue one and sometimes it's hard to discern some of the good things that these this team does and then you're trying to justify and then they lose it's the way in which they lose is by doing like a really silly barren throw as well and so like it's hard right to sit there and keep supporting and just a some of your arguments like a lot of the things that they do really well kind of like uncie you know like that harder to notice then just like well I noticed that barren play Vettius and I don't think that looked very good and I'm like why you've got a good point for us oh no like trust me they're like they're actually pretty good closing arguments under on rogue so rogue I think they're an interesting team I actually so I think we talked about like what we see and like impacting game stuff like inspired as a player that has really impressed me so far the split and I think one of the reasons why we have seen them like beat some of the teams we consider our top teams and like lose to a misfits is like he just pops off on Olaf like he just looks insane on that champion so like some of those games like against fnatic I believe like his or her origin his like early game on Olaf like how do you stop him after he gets that point and then you have and then they don't approach these situations where they can throw around a baron and then the misfits game looks a little bit closer and then they get into some questionable later game calls but actually for another team that I think is a surprise and maybe it's a little different direction than rogue is origin because I think we look at them right and they do a runners-up last split and they're meant to really burn it – yeah yeah no no but here's the thing right it's like they got through or we thought they got through all of their issues like halfway through spring split you know cuz they started off slow they fixed everything and it was like look there's a smart team they know how to play against their opponents like nuke duck looks on fire this whole team looks like really really solid and they come into this split and they are a middle-of-the-pack team which is just a huge huge surprise and honestly a little concerning to me that they have actually just regressed from spring to summer well I'm gonna give you some more opportunity to flame because now we've moved on to the second part which is our Power Rankings so we have done it slightly different because every single time we'll try to do this we always mess up we always go over time and here we go in this bowl I've taken the 10 teams magnets now and during Vettius we'll take turns drawing teams at random and placing them in our tears now the other color caster can ask questions but cannot challenge the placement unless they use their objection and you guys must do it in like Phoenix Wright style so what is that objection there you go I can do that that's easy don't yell into the microphone now each color Koster only gets one objection to override the placement so use it wisely also to activate it I was just reading my prompt it says you must go full Phoenix right which Betty is perfect to go first close your eyes okay Andrews gonna go you just said close your eyes didn't specify a name like reaching out to Anderson to the table eyes closed so are we putting these guys in the tiers are we doing a power ranking one through ten you can women attea are putting the minutes here that's all you're doing a power a time and it's also this is actually exceptionally hard because normally we start from the bottom or the top and so there's some sort of gauge but if you get a team like rogue who can very safely go into the middle suddenly it really warps the gauge that you're playing or no I mean if you really want I can take this one for you no you're good to take the swimmer you can veto me but I got rogue all the way okay so we already had a lot of our conversation about rogue we already know they can beat some of our top teams they can lose some of our bottom teams oh I'm gonna say rogue for C tier for me okay why C so so I think like they beat an Origin that I don't think has looked particularly good this split so even though yes we're like we would still like call them one of our top teams based on their spring split performance I think that wind carries less weight to me then it would against like a g2 fnatic splice so far in this split and their loss against misfits really concerned me last week that's a good game yeah I mean it was a good game and like it was by all means like it was their game to win I think and they and they lost it in in a barren throw as Vettius rightly pointed out earlier but ultimately when I look at this team I am concerned that if inspired is not on something super comfortable and if he can't like perform very well then this team is not going to be able to beat the top teams now do you think they have limited champion pools I do especially when I look like inspired like inspired first picking Olaf is like nice man like you're a really good Olaf player and like he's played like good Rex and I think he's had good games on other things but I am a little concerned for this team if he's not on a high-impact early game champion because like you look at the rest the team and like Larson is much more passive style mid laner what do you think success looks like for them because I think this is a very similar storyline at least the picture that you're painting to SK gaming and with their high-impact jungler they made it all the way to playoffs is that not successful I mean I would consider that success roguelike playoff should be the goal for this team I'm just at this point in the split I'm not super confident saying like this team is not gonna 100% make playoffs especially like some other teams like I think like misfits beating them vitality also looking better in recent weeks do you agree or disagree you don't have to tell me why just a career just I agree for different reasons okay but we're both in see sure they have spoken Vettius your turn touch the bowl don't I apologize let's feel them for the shapes either misfits we actually started off with like some of the hardest so this is the problem because in my opinion I put irate misfits as a team lower than I rate rogue but obviously they lost so there's this recency bias the ways against them but it's difficult for me to rate misfits higher considering that in my opinion is a team the very one-dimensional I think it's so you're talking about which roster are you talking about this one yeah yeah yeah no because I feel like they're they're very clearly the same team that they weren't you masters and domestically which is that there are one through one team that relies on they're too strong solo laners to have like but like an old g2 like if you think back when Shannon and we did was the bottom four g2 that's what this version of misfits can be very similarly equated to where a lot of the emphasis goes on the two solo laners and you're relying on a high impact to the game jungler to like snowball these silane is so semi-finals at Worlds but yeah you heard it here first neon will be the next to take down easy yeah but I think that I struggle to write them the same which I wrote rogue so if we are putting rogue at sea then unfortunately I have to put misfits Aditya and the ultimate reasoning for it is that right now I think that our league is very smart and I think that our the understanding that a lot of our teams have about the game is at a much higher level than it used to be and why I think misfits is a good team they're not going to be good enough or at least right now at this point they I think that mechanics alone is not enough to carry them and the reality is they should have lost that game to rogue they won because dan dan was on level 16 jax and dive into a barren pit one versus three and killed everyone like great he's a good player I'm gonna try and take that away from them but as a team they showcase a lot of weakness to me so I'm just gonna put them in details now good points Betty I liked him SK Wow okay wow we're actually kind of going hmm alright so SK have had a much difficult start to the season I would say and at the moment they do not seem like they're showing any real signs of improvement to me I think in particular selfmade has just looked like complete shell of his former self Wow I mean I think it's true though like you look last split he was getting like every single MVP he was like solo carrying games worthy do you think that he doesn't look like summer oh excuse me spring so I think part of it is just in spring he just found a lot of early game kills you know I think it's not fine now uh so I won it one of the things that I'm thinking of is I actually think soccer I coming to the roster changes things a lot because if you look at spring split a lot of his skills were gotten around top lane with world of up there and it's not to say that world live was a better player than soft gray but you look at their champion pools and soccer a is all about like range top laners who took they have less CC and they're just pushing waves means actually doing SK gaming would say that chakra is the bet no I agree I agree I agree but when you look at champion pools I think it's just a lot harder to gank that style of dink-dink for that style of player because soccer is going to be pushing up his lanes he's not gonna have champions that are like exceptionally great at like diving towers or anything like that so I think selfmade has just had less options in the early game and I also think that we look at peering into as another player that's really underperformed this split and if you are going to like try to make like multi man place on side lanes you need a more reliable mid laner so it's like both a combination of self-made not having as good a mid lane or the split as well as just not having access to early game kills that I think is really limiting him I think the team's just worse yeah so what would you like to place okay so right now it's between C and D I think CT r4s Cairo I'll put them in D you think dt r are you are you towing me are you towing my no I'm just socializing you that you should put them in D because like let's be honest they just should be in D is that a view to you make the decision yet so there's nothing to Vito will put them in D out just gonna do them like I mean that what they're in late nine eight ninth place right now do you agree or disagree radius I mean I personally just think that they their approach or mentality to the game has shifted from what it used to be and I don't know what that is exactly but if I was to assume coming in last split their mentality was we have nothing to lose everything to gain and they made playoffs then this split they come in and they're like touch the ball this split they're like we have to try and get playoffs again we have to improve we have to get better from what we were and now they're thinking a lot more about how to improve and I think that that process of trying to improve ultimately hurts you because you're now not doing what works for you while trying to be a different team so I think that yeah that yeah ready Origen oh boy you can just put them straight into Oh God I was I thought I had a convincing answer there I mean I guess you have to put them in beat it you have to because they beat the teams below them and they leave us of the teams Wow no they kind of lose to everyone hey yeah cuz they recently lost vitality and then they were what's gonna be very late do you need to be in situ you ha nuke Duncan called looked a lot better this week yeah put them in B put them in B because like the thing is they're individual players I think still carry them to be tier the town that they have on that roster is still strong enough that I think that right now if they were to play every team there and our league they'd probably still like look like a four and five five and four team so I saw have a lot of maybe I'm blinded blinded by the faith but yeah I guess if I was to evaluate them right now they have very different games right where it feels like that they're very good at exploiting mistakes as they often always have been and in my opinion our fari is by far and away the best performing player on that team right now but it feels like that either Cold's approach to the journal has changed or the team's mentality has changed what's going through a growth phase I don't know like there's something going on internally in that team why like you think this is a strategy problem and not a player problem yeah because me sk-gaming have a what he's saying is a player problem what you say is it might be like I do agree with the the period thing but I also think like I think a lot of our teams right now are like evolving and figuring out how to play the game because when we eventually get g2 and we'll me never to put them in s tier the thing that should put them in s tier and a cut above everyone else is because of how they have redefined how the League of Legends has played here in Europe and because of that what we talked about in PG lnder and I was that because of that it's like trickled down and it's challenging the idea for every single team in our league and the likes of fnatic have picked up on it I've gotten better Spice has picked up on it and gotten better Origen seem to have picked up on it not sure do with it and gone a bit worse and maybe that's like it's hard because I don't know what goes on internally I could only see from the surface but the nuke duck from last split and the cold from a split isn't here and like that's not the best house this I wish I could give more but that's like the best I can give because those players are not performing the same as they were last but yeah I mean one of the things that crown shot said on pgl that really resonated with me was that teams are struggling to find an identity so I think like that's very clear and sort of like your argument there with an origin and in SK is they just don't really have as defined a play style as our top teams at the moment speaking of alright a tear any objections nope a is where I would put them as well because you to exists but also their last two weeks true and I think that what we saw in the last it's yours yeah why not ask why not ask you know the last two weeks I think have been a real problem for them as any smart analyst would say uh but they just they just hard ran it down and we've seen some concerns for them if they don't get a strong early game lead that players like Hill sang brock's and blippo will go really hard like they have a 5 K gold lead and it will just keep dying over and over why are you guys not being harder on fnatic because it seems like vetti's oftentimes you bring up this idea of fnatic have a one-dimensional play style and well I don't think that's entirely accurate to their current form I think that they're still close to me it does feel that they have been trying to reinvent the wheel because you were dealing with a new player but I feel like the systems that they have in place to kind of figure out how to replay League of Legends are probably left over from how they figured it out when they had caps so it kind of comes into the same problem but I think so in my opinion phonetics fundamental identity is that Brock's a is their early game right if he does not get ahead in the early then fnatic does not function as well as a team I think there's evidence to suggest in the last two weeks that that is the case right that's a large part of why splice were able to stay even even get ahead in the game against fnatic in the matchup in my opinion blippo has actually been one of the better performers and even though it sometimes looks like that he's dying around saline he comes across to me as quite an intelligent player that generates a lot of pressure on side lanes that actually makes it easier and by it's time for the rest of his team to get to a point where they can turn it around because the one thing that like it's a bit of a meme but it's also true in that fnatic always get to a point where if the it's the first 20 minutes of chaos you get to minute 21 and then all of a sudden it's like someone on that team goes oi stop let's think about what we need to do and let's get our together and then like that they all suddenly start playing on the same page and it's fascinating to watch because they like the for a period of time they just look like they're running it down and then they all of a sudden just click and that's why I think they have very like surprising mid games where they turned a lot of games around like one of the most memorable ones when cats was in that Ross was actually that serious EDG and you can make arguments the EDG failed to close but at the same time I think like fnatic do a lot of good things when they're all on the ball and they all realize the situation they're in to like turn the game back in their favor so I think they have quite predictable things that you can look to punish but I also think that they have a lot of ingenuity and addict adaptability within the team that still puts them very strong and you can never really count fnatic out even when it looks like they're down who's in your hand vitality you can put those bad boys in c-sections no I liked it I did a lot Tolkien's you can talk a little bit about this one weight but it's your yeah I know but go ahead chance to rewatch vitality vs origen and sorry viewers my family was here this weekend so I haven't know every how dare you spend time with so I haven't watched them so I don't actually know what happened the vitality origin game but somehow they won and it looked like that it wasn't like Origen making horrendous mistakes it sounded like and looked like vitality were actually doing pretty positive things so I struggled to really rate this team outside of what I've seen in recent weeks and it feels like that they are another team that is figuring out their identity something that we've heard a lot from them is like they still have issues from a split that they've trying to work through the one biggest thing I think is that figuring out which lanes to play through and successfully doing it I think is one of the biggest points of this team and how their bot lane has developed into the mid game I think is a large part of why they're getting better later on into the split but basically I think individually they're better than the bottom teams that we currently have right now but I struggled to put them somewhere in the middle of the pack because you guys have Origen wait time that's good thing you don't get a veto splice put those guys in a tier boom splice or a good team anything else I mean yeah I think so the play I want a highlight is Cersei I think he's just actually one of our most intelligent junglers in the in the league and he's a huge reason why this team is performing so well this split like you look at spices early game it's all zur say all the time and like I got I got a chance to break down some of his pathing last weekend and it was like one of the first times had done like a super deep dive into what exactly he does it's just like very very clever the the things he can do and like most junglers would never intentionally start on a buff that they know is warded but the way he used that just so that you know I think those misfits they were playing against just had no idea where he actually was on the map was just super super cool who's in your hand no I do want to quickly talk about some of the weaknesses the spice do have though they have a tendency to get complacent in the mid game and one of the things that I think a lot of fans don't appreciate is that the reason why they end up in late-game situations is because a lot of their players get caught and that's why I have big criticisms toward Cobb a this split because he's actually been one of the biggest perpetrators of this he's not bigger than chachi but in the last two weeks he has been someone who's been getting caught he has way more him and Cersei going into that last this most current week had nine deaths humanoid nor scarran and visit Rocchi all rank either first or second yes of most isolated death a hundred percent agree with you annoyed and chachi have 55% of splice yes I agree with you but in recent weeks right cob a was the player that was getting caught out and costing his team their mid game right and the point that I'm trying to make is that that team gets complacent right there are generally main perpetrators in the likes of their top laner and their support and visitation or skerin however we've seen it from all of their players the least likely from Cersei but all of them in the mid game do have this tendency to take a path that they shouldn't be taking they overextend in the lane that they don't need to and these small essence of complacency are ultimately in my opinion won't stop them from being an STI team right now because they have the capabilities and the tools to end games quicker or snowball the lead harder because of these small mistakes they end up in situations where the game gets dragged out and they have to rely on later game players in order to win so that's the big reason for me why they they can't be SD right now who's in your hand I think shelcha it is Schalke their Abita team but you should put them ahead of origin I don't know if you do it like that like are they all in the same bucket but if I have to give them another shout could would be the number above origin good thing this is a tier list I think the introduction of trick has helped this team a lot I think there's even arguments to be made the Shocker could almost edge their way into a tier whether they're there yet I don't know but I think that the introduction of trick has done a huge job for the growth of our dog a and I also think that the bot lane is very consistent and ignore works a lot better with trick than he did with memento so I think Schalke as a whole I've showcased a lot of growth I think that their team fighting is one of the best in the league I think that the transition from a strong early game into being able to force objectives is something that they're still working on but I think it's tough to talk about shelcha because like they are just a very solid well-rounded team and they kind of lose to the very top teams for that that consistently better than everyone else right now and ER he haven't gotten to talk a lot so you get to place the last two teams Oh baby G to go ahead and put those guys in D tier objection where would you like to put them videos okay why are you two and give me the elevator page if I'm brand new to League of Legends I have no idea what's happening I'm very excited to see the World Championship and figure out who is going to win in season nine give me the GT elevator speech I'm trying to think of a good sports analogy right now how much it's not working okay me super speed you know the Beatles they were really good Ringo is not even the best Pike player but they're really good how would you watch them play it's like a great song you know it's like one of the greatest hits and every time they play it's a greatest hit but then every once a while like yeah do you have an objection with that I don't get to play the objection can we also just because like I also just think it's important that while we give praise to some of these teams like I like the fact that we've criticized fnatic splice I know you want to get in here and start elbowing in on g2y because they over commit but you're taking time from our last subject so how much do you want to flame gee – I'm just saying gee choo they over commit the not a perfect team they are infallible they can lose games guys but that's what makes them so good sure whatever but they're not perfect there's a deeper conversation about what does perfect League of Legends look like right now because it feels like we were in a system that was trained by the Korean League of Legends and we still can't shake it even though it doesn't exist anymore that said I'll let it we're on to our last subject you don't say anything about Excel alright there was that one team that I forget and I feel bad because I shouldn't like she really like Jessica and Mystique's but always forget I mean they have as many wins as the brand-new misfits roster to be fair though the brand-new misfits roster one EU masters which is more international titles than doublelift take this on international title I money Jacqueline is because there are many nations nice thing tell me their greatest strength of the greatest weakness alright greatest strength is casual okay I really like greatest weakness right off the bat okay I stick to a timer Mickey the greatest weakness is that teamwork like they only know how to play as far that an objection sir why already use my objection on g2 because you want to put them in detail but I agree that they're in detail I just think that their biggest issues that they only know how to play as a five-man team and teams that are better than them realize how to not do that so I just think that they are they're very one-dimensional and how they play I mean I also just feel like once this team starts losing like I just see Mickey go into a side lane and then I never see or hear from him again like they can be losing inhibitors and this happened in like two or three games now he's just like casually pushing out a side of him like dude you got to get back to base or it's like your Nexus is going down so to me it just seems like it's it's really hard when I look at this team because it's not super clear like what they can do to improve because I just think we have much better team so much better rosters in our league at the moment I don't think you guys give Excel enough credit but I don't get to play the game so moving are also 1 and 9 yes so you don't have much of a like to stand on just because a team lead loses doesn't mean they lose in the way that like it's hindsight analysis to be like oh they've lost because of this rather than looking at their I don't know I'm pretty confident that the the fact that a lot of their losses have been let's group up and push and then the Mickey point that's fair so essentially we have now this time here where normally we'd go to Twitter questions and I did ask some Twitter questions we want to do some rapid fire we've got to inject some happiness I can very quickly just start that one off Twitter questions for you guys to answer lovelies like who's your best Joe Joe character no one cares awfully no excellent because I have both of the color casters excuse me all three of the color casters forgot to include myself for those who don't know your casting team is divided into two different categories your play-by-play casters who are your hype yelling men so in the NFL those would be the guys that are like that ten the five touchdown and then your color casters which we're supposed to provide the why something is happening we'd be the guys the NFL being like League of Legends like who's talking who's yelling during team fights who does the replay analysis afterwards but there seems to be this perception on reddit where there's a bit of pushback about analysis versus narrative in color casting specifically so I wanted to take the time while we have all three of us here because we never get to be all three collectively kind of talking on a platform and have this discussion at the point of the discussion is not to be inflammatory I don't want to get in a flame war with Redax I think red it can be a it's a community that I've been a part of for a very long time before I was a caster and B can be an incredibly useful tool but I think it's really important to distinguish that is a tool for trying to measure certain metrics versus a final grade at least that's how I feel if reddit decides they don't like a cast while I can try to take information and use it as a development resource that doesn't ultimately mean that I've failed my job because then why do I have Trevor I turned to Trevor and if Trevor says you have failed is that I'm like I failed that exam but opening the floor because I know that we've been talking about this behind scenes for a long time where do you want to poll show this I want to first illustrate to fans what narrative is does and also what analysis is to us so in the casting world narrative is broken down into three different categories there's there's like team analysis which is like g2 as a team the organization's history the the King's legacy meme that so many fans love to reference that would be considered a team wide narrative that's very centered around organizations and the team as a whole on the team's achievements like a history narrative yes right so like fnatic have a very well established team narrative right you also then have player narrative which is very specific to the players so reckless perks they have very powerful compelling stories behind them and that's what's associated with player narrative you then also have in-game narrative now the in-game narrative is the actual story of the game so what happened at the beginning what happen in the middle and what happened in the end the parents still the first black yes and so often you'll hear Kass is talking about this all started when this gank bot happened and then this resulted in this and you get refreshed on the in-game narrative so it was the three core concepts of narrative that we you rely on and then analysis there are also like different types of analysis in the sense of the surface level analysis which is very much things like item builds matchups there are things like micro there's this micro analysis which is something that krepo used to specialize in where he would tell you what like what levels you'd want to trade in the bot Lane matchup the amount of experience that crog's will give you in order to achieve a certain point and then there's macro analysis which talks very much about like the map movements that happen within teams which is things like how teams utilize pressure in order to gain access to certain areas of the map are setting up vision in order to think of forward plays so these are all the things that we think of so based on that one of the issues that we as casters have is that when fans sit there and say that we don't do any analysis our immediate assumption is well I do macro analysis maybe eyes are as various the caster doesn't actually do that much micro analysis but I also do a lot of surface of analysis so I'll talk matchups I'll talk about wind conditions very easy stuff I'm a big fan of them I also love talking about the state of the map and my favorite thing to do is recently is like these five minute predictions as I call them which is like what's going to happen in the next five minutes and and we do these things right and we feel very confident we've done them because we listen back to our cast and we're like I hit that I nailed that and my favorite example is the spice versus misfits game that happened last week where I very cleanly predicted the dragon fight and how misfits would lose it if they look to took it misfits went for the fight they lost because spice had a teleport advantage and I set this whole play up and then went into the post match thread and the entire discussion was around the success of humanoid how well humanoid played and because human I did have a great game here at a quadrakill on iCarly and my head I'm like but I I tried to give them the analysis that they wanted the things that they seem to be looking for I tried to give and then when it doesn't get recognized you're like did I hit the right thing did I actually praise humanoid enough am i doing the right thing and it's a it's a complicated balance where it feels like sometimes you're trying to give the people what they want and then because reddit is the ones complaining so then don't acknowledge it you don't even know if you're hitting the mark right and it's it's a very strange complicated balance yeah cuz I mean like the thing we struggle with is like perception versus reality sometimes you're right because like you go to write it and that's how you understand like the perception of how you are performing as a caster and all these things but sometimes like you know you you have to recognize like what that voice is and a lot of times like the perception you're going to hear is a lot of negativity but it's it's something that I have a little bit of a different perspective on I guess coming from working on the Liga Legends team because they struggle with perception issues aloft right and whether you're looking at like what what people think about like the performance of the balanced team as they call them or the summoners rift team is they would much rather like for us like the og jatt like jad just came from the balanced team everyone's like oh yes yes I want you you are molded by the Alex team you have you were born exact so it's a sale like but also a it's like but like the the more clear examples like looking at like champion balance on reddit right and a lot of times like people will come off a bad game playing against it or they look at like metrics like win rate and stuff but they actually don't have super accurate data whether it's just like anecdotal experiences or it's looking at data they found on some third-party site what will often happen is that reddits perception of balance will be drastically different from that of like the balanced team themselves because they're looking at very different data they're like slicing it up into you know platinum and above data and then looking at like bronze through gold data trying to like figure out like are these champions couldn't hire Louis Lowe so and and basically what I'm trying to say here is that it can be really hard to see perception and be different from reality but doesn't mean that perception doesn't matter because ultimately they're the fans right so you have to take that into account so whether it's exactly exactly the product is made for them and whether it's balancing a champion and being like okay even though we know like a collie has a low win rate or whatever like she's really frustrating to play against and people don't like that so we have to make changes or whether it's Cassie and being like I feel like I'm hitting all these boxes but they don't like this this or this about me like sometimes you just have to look into those things and try to change them because if the message is consistent enough from Reddit then like clearly they they know something you know or they have like a strong enough opinion and enough people have a strong enough opinion that it's worth putting in change and that's that's the big thing is that while reddit might not be the beacon of truth and light there's always value and it's one of those things where the Fisher was one of the hardest working casters that I ever knew and he used to get a lot of hate it's the most it's it's become a bit of a meme where you know the huh his lack his English has improved so much but the Fisher worked his backside off to become the caster that he was and the thing that deficient wanted to be identified as something and what he figured was like I can be the smartest caster ever because I have access to all these pro players I was a former pro I know how to study the game so that's all you did and when you went when it came back from work he would just vote vote vote vote vote and like he became an expert in the craft and then it was at the beginning of 2018 just destroy your life it was just he did right but it was at the beginning of 2018 just he and I were the only casters and who was supposed to come but he didn't end up coming till summer so it's just me and him and he just came to me and he goes they don't notice they actually don't and I was like what do you mean he's like I've put all this time and effort in and I've built this reputation as like being a strong caster but half the time a lot of the things that I say it feels like they just don't register just go straight over their heads like I've had more reddit threads and more appreciations for slap it for having my butt slapped and for making a subtle joke about a taxi then I have had about my soul uses then I have had about my actual like in depth analysis and the reality is that the majority of fans just don't appreciate it and it's tough because that's what des Fisher loved but the reason why I like it feels like like our game is trained our game trains us to rank people based on like how good they are you know me like that's built into League of Legends and I feel like oftentimes when it comes to the analysis aspect it's like the way that we're trained into how to create a hierarchy or a power sadhas in the game and in gaming in general and that that will be the complaint with the justification when there are totally problems because everyone is no one's perfect caster problem I've definitely made a bunch of mistakes by last week of casting was I like got off that Vadra view I was like I don't terrible but also those lawns they get holds against you forever right people still hold over me the fact that I called Brock says – a missplay because he jumped to a bull he said way to give and right and in the moment I remember saying like maybe no misclick may have been something that I just don't know I'll get Brock to the benefit of the doubt but people like how can not know this he even made a video on it I'm like I didn't watch the video I said no is the thing I'm sorry I now know but like it's it's it's challenging and in my opinion like reddit has value in the sense that I agree with Endon like if enough people say something then there has to be some essence of truth to it but at the same time I also think that a lot of the time read it doesn't actually listen to Casas and I think that as someone that watched a lot of eSports for many years before I became a caster you listen to about for me I listen to about five to ten percent of what a caster says and all that matters is the small moments that that person tunes into because that's what sticks and that's what lasts and the reason like none of us have said legacy King or like anything related to that and like the last years at it like ten minutes ago we're scored because we keep getting that Ash backs we go into meetings like I might of times that I've gone on to a desk with medic and medic trance means like we're not saying these words right but that's my apartment we haven't said it in years but like reddit then self propagates because they then make references to be like I hate the cast it's always make reference it's like we haven't said it in like out such a long time like we heard you you were right we overdid it so we stopped and and but then it like it's soft propagates and like it's it's so challenging trying to overcome it there's also then the the pro players so a lot of pro players don't listen to the casts had a couple of chats with them but they read what read it says yep and then they get mad at the casters when in reality reddit is reacting to something that they perceive the casters to have said and then when the pro like the amount of time it's a huge game of telephone I turned to pro player that I'm talking to him like did you listen to the cast and then they come back like 30 minutes like oh you were right deception is powerful and it's it's a thing that we're all trying to battle and struggle and even though a lot of people will probably then go into this reddit thread and like be then supportive or like say nice things and like like in a week's time it'll all be forgotten and then we'll just go back to normal because rate is such a big platform half the people that even watch this won't then like that the people have watched this and then comment on this I probably not the same people that go into the post match is you'll get like praised for one thing and then criticized for like the same thing but it's like two different people right and so like when when we reread it it's really hard because it seems like it's just one voice yeah you have to remember that it's just so many people that all have very different opinions and it's like some of them up voting down votes some of them don't so like what you end up seeing isn't necessarily like it's just it's one person out of many many more and then Europe has the unique stance where what you wait Joe and diamond and then you had deficient and krepo and now you have this era of Andrew came in I transferred over Vettius you had to take up like the mantle of de fishing someone like Mitch and Martin is always going to hurt but like from that perspective do you think it's cuz NH still has jatt and Kobe like Anna's a Liz I think also dealing with this where I go into every dive of the dive thread I have to read about people like on a sail and I'm like Isaac's really smart like do is assess opinion no but he'll will be very opinionated all the time he can usually always back up his opinion again I might not agree with his version of analysis but that doesn't mean that his thesis is incorrect ultimately what he's like debating on I just don't I don't get it I just think it so much things looks like this pedestal system right where I love papa Smith is a caster he's a great caster he's also in touchable in the eyes of Reddit he can make no mistakes and there have been times where like Papa smithy behind closed doors have had very different opinions and like we've disagreed on a lot of things and you know publicly we don't challenge each other's opinions but like many times we have to and ideas about like the game and like why would you open up 144 characters when you could just yeah pink right yeah but from the eyes of Reddit like Papa smithy is untouchable and he even knows himself like a hawk conversations with him where he gets he says this cast or he's like it's for sure you can't get critical I was a terrible cast I hated it I felt like I was really bad like these are all these things I really didn't like and then he goes on to read it in bitches like Oh Papa she's such a great caster and Chris is just like I wasn't a good cast we were talking about lemons at like it's it's one of those things where sometimes you get escalated into like sta where you become untouchable and there's no feedback and then sometimes you're put into like BT ER where and you can never escape across the graph but I mean I like I even think of me as a cast all right and it's I've carved my identity out through my personality rather than through my analysis and it's frustrating for me because I spent hours and hours talking to so many pros and coaches and like studying the game when we have loads of discussions internally I went I went to a white board the other day with ender and we were like okay let's figure this out so when you reset with a zero five zero one of the typical answers can we go one four zero do you do the two-two-one which is like oh but you've also got the 0 2 2 1 0 0 we're just like oh yeah and we were like talking for hours about this and like but how do we translate this onto a cast right and so and then people always remove just like I got Lexie asked I'm like yeah I mean I am I'm really glad that people find that funny but that's not just what I'm good at right but it's all about perception and perception is a hard thing to counter and it's something that we're always trying to figure out how we meander and I guess my takeaway point is that reddit is not always wrong I do think that in my opinion there's always an element of value to be gained from them but also like it is a large collection of people they all have wildly different opinions and it's very easy for a small perception from one person – balloon because I think the Internet just doesn't like fact-checking either and it only takes one person to sit there and say like frost you disrespected Woolite and people don't listen to the vaad people don't go back and listen to exactly right but then that one perception then lingers and it stays there and it exists forever by the way it reached out – all right cool so yeah I'm watching whilst assay on it reading under honey closing comments uh I mean I guess my my experience with read it has been sort of backwards for people because I actually like I came in last year and my first split like no one even said anything like that wasn't so yeah I was like oh so expose like come on here comes a flame I'm ready for it and like Andrews clothes don't fit it's too unprofessional okay so now so it was like it was very strange for me because I actually like I I was struggling to in my in my first split to like get feedback and to like try to improve so I was like going sort of week to week like doing my thing and now this year like I don't know what's changed I felt like I've got better but now I'm getting flamed so now I'm like at the point where it's like okay cool now there's like those sort of like nuggets I can try to pull from it and try to try to work on myself so it's like not even necessarily like I think it's better now that I'm getting flamed than when I wasn't getting flamed people talk about Montecristo always said it's better to be it's I would rather people either hate me or love me rather not talk about yeah because of these people are talking about me why Montee definitely got that quote from someone else but yes yes he definitely did that's not a Monty quote Monte Cristo 29 it's funny actually because my whole cringe thing started based on what Trevor told me and Quickshot gave me the advice in my first ever split he said it doesn't matter how good or bad you are just make sure they remember your name and then cut when I returned in 2017 people would often go all the caster's for Europe are crap Oh fishy Oh stress Vettius and so like that was my whole like I'm on the list everyone knows you as flexi know me is all these different and with that we will close the episode this has been episode six season four of eu4 with my lovely guest Vettius and ender and thank you please don't flame us

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Comments
  • About the color caster not being appreciated, I think it's more that good casting or color casting is appreciated but not many people will actively show or make a comment when it's done well. I think the majority of people appreciate good color casting and learning new stuff/ understanding more about the game, they just don't say anything.

  • It's really interesting from an outside perspective to see what impact Reddit has on Casters.
    I always thought that Deficio was one of the best Casters, on the same level as MonteCristo and Doa, and never realised the amount of work he put into it.

  • Perkz in the bot lane would not have come this far if he didn't have mickeys. Perkz needs him down there.

  • I feel that while EU production team has really better themselves as content creators (Im thinking about videos hyping up the league which are getting really really good, sketches, the rap videos, etc), they are actually giving too much focus to casters/broadcast analysts theories about the game, when they should be talking much more often to players, coaches and team analysts, specially in long shows as this podcast. Don't get me wrong, these guys are smart, but its obvious that they don't have the same knowledge as the people working on teams, playing scrims and theorycrafting all the time. I specially would like to see more of some of the team analysts, as Duffman from G2, who I'm sure would have so many coool things to say about the game and the meta. His tier list of the LEC would be much more interesting than the casters list.

  • I just want you guys to know, that I am watching LEC every week and really enjoying it.
    I am looking forward to it and love every caster.
    The LEC/stream was the reason why I started to play lol again and tried to climb … currently gold 2, so not the best … BUT I liked it so far.
    So thank you for every stream and obviously EU>World

  • There’s noway broxah is the MVP when he’s not the best jungler in the league, u could say he’s the MVP of FNC i could agree he’s very viable to his own team but he’s not good enough to be the MVP of the entire league, jankos is straight up the best jungler and maybe player in the league right now, if you pause the game at any moment in any G2 game and you watch his decisions, they’re always THE best decision possible, just because his players are insane it doesn’t take away anything from the fact that he’s the best jungler in the league. However thats ender’s opinion and its ok but i just wanted to put my opinion on the topic as well xD.

  • JANKOS?????????? are you serious? if you was to take out jankos and broxah, fnatic would struggle MUCH more than g2. G2 are still top tier team without Jankos so how can he be the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER on in the LEC? thats such a horrible answer. Jankos isnt even the most valuable player in his team, its between Caps or Wunder for sure, Jankos in third. This is a no brainer Broxah MVP by far.

  • Bye, I'm out. That's it. You guys will regret putting Misfits in D tier. When we go to the end of the year you guys would have wished to put Misfits in S+ Tier. Because that will be the time when they are World Champions (and by that I mean OFFICIAL World Champions). 🙂

  • Caps can't be mvp because he had int games but Broxah can be mvp because forget the bad games. Nice logic. Don't get me wrong I'm a fan both players.

  • Broxah is a very valid MVP candidate, he has huge impact in the early game; and fnatic usually got pushed behing by good teams in the early (like IG), before, but now with him having that impact they can get to their strong point in the mid/late without being too far behind or even infront. He also keeps fnatic constantly in close games, with baron steals, insane game changing engages and much more. His value to fnatic is underrated, he is the most valuable player, so far in my opinion. Without him playing good, fnatic plays much worse and thats what the value is all about right?

  • I have a feeling there's less and less player episodes, or maybe it's recency bias (live, not thru a camera 😀 )
    I'd really like more players (not the recurring 4-5) and their insights on the show, like last season

  • I don't want to be that guy, but no players but Ender and Vedius is just disappointing.

    Aaaand Vedius doesn't know what an MVP is, it doesn't matter if Jankos is arguably better, it's about how important a player is to the teams succes. And no player on G2 can in my opinion be MVP, because all of them are just so insane, take one player out and you are still left with 4 that can make game deciding plays.

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