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Joker Wasn’t The Movie We Deserved, But The One We Needed | Jack Saint


– [Jack] Look, folks, if you’re
coming here and you’re not already a fan of my videos,
I’m gonna level with you. I am a full-on, card-carrying SJW. – Why won’t you just shut up?
(man screams) – [Jack] You know the ones that have to read political statements
into everything they watch and talk about how this thing you liked as a kid is problematic for some reason? That’s me. You ever get recommended that video about how the movie Sky
High is actually fascist? Yep, that’s me. (frog ribbits)
– Uh oh. – [Jack] So trust me, if anyone was going to do a big, hot take about
how Joker is secretly an incel, red pill, alt-right propaganda
movie, it’s gonna be me. And I’m here to tell you this
movie, I really liked it. (bright music) You know what else I really like? Today’s sponsor, RAID: Shadow Legends. RAID: Shadow Legends ain’t
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you could be one of them. Also, quick disclaimer:
this video is going to use the word society repeatedly. I’m not gonna make a joke about it. I already made a joke about
it in a previous video. I’m kinda sick of the joke. I wish we could stop making it. Now to get some out of
the way before I move on, it should be obvious to
anyone who’s seen Joker that it resists easy and
straightforward answers about who it’s for or what
it’s really trying to say. Even beyond questions of what elements of the film are even real and not the wild fantasies
of its lead character, it’s a film that isn’t
particularly interested in sign posting any correct message to take away from it,
instead giving us a series of both sympathetic and
horrifying vignettes, painting the picture of a man
and the culture he’s a part of being driven to the absolute brink. Joker is a deeply political movie, but it isn’t one interested
in only giving lip service to one possible perspective. I think a lot of people are going to be coming out of this movie not sure whether the titular Joker
was a hero or a villain, which speaks not only
to how much audiences have been trained to see
clear-cut moral rights and wrongs in their
storytelling as of late, but a deliberate effort on the part of the filmmakers to
leave you as questioning where their own line of
acceptability is drawn. With that said, I also don’t think there was the desire to leave you
as apathetic about this, to come away going well,
I guess you can’t say who’s right or wrong for sure. Oh well, YOLO. I feel like it’s impossible to be really engaging
with the material here and come away shrugging
your shoulders about it. It invites real conversation,
and that’s what I’m going to be trying to do today
by providing my take and hopefully fueling
something more constructive than the usual fabricated two
sides bickering each other. The second thing I wanna get
out of the way is what I mean when I say this was not
the movie we deserved, even if it was the one we needed because for the most part, this is going to be a surprisingly
positive video for me, considering how critical I usually am of the political messaging
in big Hollywood fare. So to be clear, I think
Joker does a tremendous job of illustrating very
contemporary anxieties about class divide and marginalization in our current society, and I’m gonna get to why in a second. But I do think it missed
the mark pretty profoundly on aspects of marginalization
that can’t really be ignored if we’re talking about
somewhere like the USA, especially taking into account
the film’s period setting. Namely, this film does almost nothing with the clear racial and sexual aspects of how marginalization has played out over the last few
decades, and in some ways, I think it even opens itself up to some very dismissive
perspectives on things like the ways black and Latino communities have clearly been the primary victims of overt systemic oppression. Overwhelmingly, these are
groups that suffer most from many of the things
this film has to talk about: poor education services, poor social care, job insecurity, and, as we’re
increasingly finding out, pollution and negative health defects at the hands of big industry
on top of hindrances like racial profiling and
housing discrimination. For all the film has to say
about how the working class and mentally ill are treated,
these groups are boiled down to token representation in the form of cardboard cutout
characters serving mainly as hindrances to the white male lead. Now for sure, you can respond by saying that this is inevitable when
you’re making a movie focused on the Joker, and the
Joker is obviously going to be a white guy until
the SJWs get their way. And to that I say
absolutely, which is why, for me, it’s a somewhat minor criticism among most of what I have to say. Still, when a kind of unified uprising against an oppressive system
is the focus of your story, I definitely wish more of an effort to acknowledge this stuff had been made. There’s only so far a conversation can go when you’re ignoring half of it, and frankly, I think that’s a
problem Joker 100% falls into. Okay, now, fair warning,
I’m about to gush. The gushing is about to happen. Are you ready for the gush? Here it is. (water splashing) So Joker is obviously not
nearly the first movie to deal with issues of poverty, mental illness, oppression,
or marginalization. Yes, I have seen The King
of Comedy and Taxi Driver, and you should also, as
well as everything Ken Loach has ever made, everything
Spike Lee has ever made, everything Andrea Arnold ever made, Sling Blade, Winter’s
Bone, Precious, Girlhood, Moonlight, and Tangerine,
but not The Florida Project. I have some bones to pick with that one. Also, maybe check out
some Gaspar Noé films, but try and do it on an empty stomach. I think there’s a huge
amount of perspective missing from anyone suggesting Joker
is something totally new when, even among flashy,
stylized US dramas about class divide and violent protest, last year we got the absolutely incredible Sorry to Bother You. Once again worth recognizing
so many of the films I just listed both star non-white
and non-male main characters and were given far less
investment and publicity than Joker, and that
probably isn’t a coincidence. But the point is Joker
is doing incredibly well both critically and commercially, and I think that’s a big part of why it’s worth talking about. The message of Joker appears
to be very much coming through, even among people who
generally avoid stories with this kind of focus. But what is that focus? Okay, so brief summary. (man belching)
Spoilers. Joker 2019 tells the
story of Arthur Fleck, a clown for hire and failing
standup struggling not only with extreme poverty in
a run-down Gotham City but also severe mental illness, resulting, among other things, in an inability for Art to
recognize basic social cues and a pronounced tic forcing him to laugh in inappropriate and
uncomfortable situations. Taking cues from the now
famous Killing Joke story from which the movie is mostly based, we then track Arthur as he
goes through one bad day or, in his case, one bad week or so. First, some kids steal
his sign and beat him up. Then he gets fired from his
job for bringing a gun to work. His mother gets sick. He’s openly mocked by his childhood idol after a particularly bad standup set goes the AT’s equivalent of viral. Lack of state funding means
he loses access to any kind of social care or medication
for his various disorders, and, with his mother’s eventual death, Arthur completely loses
his grip on reality as he embraces the violent
alternate persona of Joker, or at least I think it would be easy to say this is Arthur
losing his grip on reality. The question ultimately posed by the film is could we really
imagine any outcome other than this if we do factor in
the reality Arthur lives in? Which brings us to my first
point of phrase, framing. A common pattern when we look at many big Hollywood genre movies, especially superhero
films, is a focus very much on society as being made up
of individuals who appear to make the world a better
place or to make it a worse one. It’s a classic framework. We have the hero who we can put all of our hopes and dreams into,
and then there’s the villain who represents a disruption
of the status quo and who needs to be
defeated to restore order. Watch any Avengers movie,
you see what I mean. And this is a pattern that repeats in a lot of fiction like this. Sometimes, this bad individual will at least represent ideas
meaningful to the main character. Lex in Batman V Superman
might represent powerlessness. Obadiah Stane in Iron Man
One might represent greed. Ego in Guardians of the
Galaxy II might represent ego. Joker in The Dark Knight represents chaos. In this way, he probably lines up closer with The Killing Joke incarnation than the one we ended up with here. As a villain, if, again, we
could call Arthur a villain, the one we get this time
lines up with a second run of villains who don’t just
represent abstract ideas but specific contemporary
issues in our society. Killmonger in Black Panther is one of the most obvious examples, written to represent broadly
the disenfranchised minorities in the wake of colonialism, more specifically the
black community in the USA. And then there’s Spiderman:
Homecoming, frankly, the closest thing the MCU
had to real acknowledgement of the growing class
divide in much of the world with Vulture being a
blue collar worker forced into a life of crime to
support his struggling family. Sadly, Parker himself
doesn’t contribute much to that conversation. Unlike basically every other iteration of the character usually seen
as the working-class hero, compared to heroes like
Bruce Wayne and Tony Stark, here he’s the pet project
of a doting billionaire and will remain so for
the foreseeable future. But that’s not the point here. What I want to highlight
with these examples isn’t just what these
movies tend to talk about but the way they talk about them, namely that, with rare exception, any time a social issue is
introduced in these movies, it’s framed in the context of a villain who might have a point but
it still fundamentally wrong. Vulture might have a point
that the rich exploit and quickly discard the
poor, but he’s a criminal who kills people and threatens
teenagers and steals. He’s wrong and needs to go to jail. Killmonger has a very good point about the indifference towards atoning for our histories of
colonization, but here, yeah, he also kills people,
and he wants to kill all their children, too.
(man screaming) Ideas are boiled down to individuals who can then be quickly discarded so we never really have to consider how broken elements of
our society really are. For more on that, check out my
video on ideology in the MCU. But then there’s Arthur Fleck. Now Arthur Fleck does do
terrible things in this film. He kills first in self defense, but after that point commits
murder more and more freely, even suffocating his own mother in a moment of bitter revenge, all of this culminating
in the brutal shooting of a talk show host in front
of a live studio audience. These are horrific acts, and
it’d be hard to empathize with any real-world person
who acted in this way. But here’s where the penny drops and the question left by the film that made me realize
how much I enjoyed it. Even if we agree that much
of what Arthur does is wrong, can we truly blame him for his actions given the world that he lives in? Even more pressingly, can we not in some ways justify his hatred? Arthur Fleck is extremely poor
and severely mentally ill, two groups usually the first to suffer when social support fails a community. When, say, a conservative government talks about austerity, talks about a reduction in public spending to
reduce budget deficits, these are the groups they
are knowingly harming, as indeed they do here. Even his mental illness is
to some extent alluded to as being rooted in the
same lack of support with the revelation of his
adoption and years of abuse before being discovered
by social services. This is if we ignore the
even darker possibility that Arthur was actually
the disowned child of corporate mogul Thomas
Wayne, here framed not as the angelic father
figure he’s usually seen as but just another indifferent
multi-millionaire, spouting tired rhetoric
about how he’s here to save everyone, all
the while chastising them for protesting the reality
of their social conditions. Arthur Fleck, for all he
supposedly loses his grip on reality, in some
ways simply sees things for what they are. He sees a marginalized public
being constantly mocked and derided by a privileged elite with no real knowledge or care of the life he’s had to struggle with. And he says fuck you, no more. And against all odds, the
public picks up that message. Fuck you, no more. And the film smartly does
the thing these types of movies rarely do. It lets that idea fester. We don’t get a Batman showing up to calmly moralize how he
understands Joker’s frustrations but can’t endorse his violent methods, to take him down and throw him in jail to restore order for another day. The film essentially
presents us with an idea that if this is the material
reality of the world we live in this is outcome of
violent, desperate protest is the only one that makes sense. And, well, this is the material reality of the world we live in. At the climax of the film,
Arthur himself pointedly claims that he believes in nothing, and I think that’s important here. I think if Arthur were framed
as a more straightforward, revolutionary idealogue,
more of a Killmonger figure, it would risk inflating
his nihilistic bloodshed with the 99%-style resistance
protest movements the film is clearly nodding to with its conclusion. At the end of the day, Arthur is what you might call pure ideology, a
man so consumed by the feeling that the system will not give him a voice to change the reality of his condition that he resigns himself
to the small victories, the ability to put a face
to every privileged asshole who told him he was nothing more than a punchline and to pull the trigger. This is the actual outcome of the individualistic
rhetoric I talk about in these types of media in
which we desperately try to play along with the fantasy that there’s one bad figure
representing all the ills of the world who we just have to put a stop to to end the problem. And Joker 2019 says no. Actually, these problems are the result of a series of much more wide-reaching, interconnected systems, the
result of a class system upheld by a state, most of the time
upheld by corporate interests. It’s a simple equation. If you take these communities
and you remove the systems in place to care for them and
you remove any real ability for them to change that or, in many cases, care for themselves, this is the result. And frankly, yeah, I think we
really need that right now. And it gives me hope that a
film that acknowledges all of this is currently doing absurd numbers all around the world. Here we have a
multi-million dollar project that doesn’t cast a moral judgment on violent revolt against a broken system, that doesn’t say maybe you have a point but you went too far. And by the same token,
it doesn’t spell out this is good, it’s a good
thing this is happening because frankly, we know that it isn’t. Nobody out there
protesting right now wants to be fighting tooth and nail out on the streets for their rights. People who just wanna wreck shit and cause chaos are a slim minority against a population that simply wants to be listened to and treated fairly. It’s a film that’s willing to stand up and say that this is, like it or not, the predictable outcome of what the powers that be choose to do with its people. And I don’t care if you’re coming at this as someone who already believes
all the same things I do. Hell, maybe you usually find yourself in political opposition
to me more often than not. I just feel like if there’s anything that’s going to get us all to realize that we’re all fighting
the same enemy here, it’s going to be stories like this one, stories that don’t seek to police the line between justified and
unjustified acts of protest but simply say this is our
world, here are its outcomes. What could we do together to change that? And sure, that could be naive. There will, after all, always
be people like Thomas Wayne or De Niro’s Murray
Franklin, insisting that, despite all we know about Arthur and the society he’s living in, he should’ve just worked harder or made different
choices as an individual, people who want to ignore how
these are predictable outcomes of marginalization like
we see in the film, people who, as Arthur says, won’t get it. But who knows? Maybe just once, we can
basically agree things need to change rapidly and fundamentally if we have any hope of making
it out of this thing alive. Now a few things I wanna
touch on before I go. One, once again, I think it’s evident that this film doesn’t
give us a transparent, correct interpretation
of what it has to say. This is my reading, and
I’ve ready many others that differ pretty fundamentally to it. I’ve seen some argue the film, quite contrary to my
pro-revolutionary read, has a deeply conservative bend. It does, after all, conflate
anti-fascist movements with literally the most famous
supervillain in the world. And yes, to anyone who says the film plays into the trope of
demonizing the mentally ill, I definitely see where you’re coming from. I do think the film really goes out of its way to underline that Arthur could have been a perfectly
functioning member of society had he not been so relentlessly shat on by the systems in place that
were supposed to protect him. By the end of the day, he is still yet another
severely mentally ill man committing random acts of ultra violence when we know full well that the overwhelming
majority of these kinds of attackers have no history
of ill mental health. Finally, I want to acknowledge again yes, I think the film drops
the ball drastically when it comes to acknowledging
the other intersections of oppression that clearly play a role, especially if we’re talking about the USA. I think it’s sad to
imagine that may be part of why the film has succeeded is because of its reticence to acknowledge things are more complicated than class. In any case, I do hope
that if you’ve stuck around through this, you hear
where I’m coming from. And even if you disagree with my reading, which I’m very much prepared for, we can have a sincere conversation about it in the comments
here and elsewhere. I don’t know, worth a shot, right? If you liked the video, please
consider giving it a like and maybe even subscribing to hear more perspectives like this one. Use the bell button to be
notified of new videos. If you really like my work, feel free to throw me a
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names scrolling by now or through Kofi for one-time donations. It helps me keep the channel going. Finally, consider sharing this on places like Reddit, Twitter, or
your local discord server so we can spread this
discussion as far as possible. Other than that, you can also reach me on Twitter @lackingsaints, and I also stream regularly
at twitch.tv/lacksaint. You can also check out The Serfs, my channel recommendation for this video. They do great political
streams over on Twitch at twitch.tv/theserfstv, as
well as fun YouTube videos which I’ll be linking
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below to help out the channel. And I guess I’ll catch you next time. As always, love you all, and stay safe. (pleasant upbeat music)

100
Comments
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    I never try to worry too much about who my video is going to appeal to or alienate, I mostly just make the arguments I feel make the most sense and let the chips fall where they may – with that said, with this video I have tried very hard to walk a line where I can be understandable both to big fans of this movie and skeptics, from all across the political aisle. To that end, I'll be trying to moderate comments to keep discussion civil, but I hope in any case we all get something worthwhile out of it. Have a great week, folks!

    (P.S. please send me a dollar on patreon if you like the vid it helps me pay rent thx)

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  • I liked this movie a lot, but I can’t help but think that the billionaire class has found a way to monetize the ire of the working class with this movie.

  • I understand how you came to the interpretation you did, but I think ascribing any major political message (left-wing or right-wing) is faulty. I think that some people are trying to shoehorn their political beliefs into the film, both negatively (alleged "incel" glorification by the media) and positively (like this video liking the "anti-capitalist" and oppression message). Here's what I see: it's a very simple character story of a famous comic-book villain with very simple, apolitical, not-new morals: Don't bully people, including and especially the mentally ill.
    Arthur didn't become Joker because "capitalism" failed him, he became Joker because he was mentally ill, caused by childhood abuse, and happened to live in a shitty fictional city in the 80s where mental health was not much cared about like now. He wasn't oppressed by any "system", his therapy didn't help him anyway (he expressed frustration with the mundane way the therapist interacted with him regularly) and he quit taking his meds of his own choice (he had some left, but he stopped for whatever reason, not that they were really helping much), after he'd already killed several people for mistreating or bullying him. The protests were caused by violent people overreacting to a rich asshole talking shit about the murderer and poor "clowns" that would do such a thing (seems like they shouldn't have been offended by that if it weren't accurate of their own characters 🤔) This all served as a narrative backdrop to furthering Arthur's descent into infamy and madness, and to setting up the Wayne killings. That's it. Saying capitalism is to blame is like saying Old Westerns are pro-gun-control, or anti-gun-violence; it misses the point.
    Of course, art is subjective, and you could read many different messages or undertones into a story. But I just don't see the one of "social injustice" that you do.

  • Soc jus fear monger trying to win back some of the credibility they lost with their misguided fear mongering and public hysteria and moral outrage campaign. "No, we really like this movie".

  • bro u should make a vid on xena warrior princess
    itd b cool to see a modern analysis of the show since i see it through thick pink nostalgia glasses

  • If repressed emotions are not released in nonviolent ways, they will seek expression through violence; this is not a threat but a fact of history.

  • The World: The Joker is an awesome movie

    Jack Saint: Oh no, it can't be an awesome movie cuz Joker is not casted as a lesbian disabled Afro-American non-binary trans-woman with aids and cancer. And also is bad cuz Joker is a white guy like in the comics
    (Even if most actors the movie's cast are actually black women)

  • So I kept writing this, and for some inexplicable reason, I was redirected to a random video for almost 7 postings. It has happened so often that I have become almost vehemently reinforced to type it.

    I watch your videos every time you release, I very much enjoy your content… but I am a white male, like you.
    You suggest that the lead character shouldn't be white, even if it's an inherently evil force. I don't dis-agree that the current systems of government should be uprooted, I don't think there isn't a bias through lineage, but I find this insane.

    This video suggests that no whites should be portrayed regardless of what they represent, this suggests that any portrayal of white individuals is inherently racially biased, SO, I suggest that you stop making videos, if you feel people of color are under-represented by any white people in media, by solidarity, you should stop making videos…. Unless you think you are a white space christ, and that people of color are too weak to do it for themselves.

    Please respond, I want to be wrong, justify this.

  • @ 5:27 "These groups are boiled down to token representation, in the form of cardboard characters serving mainly as hindrances to the white male lead"

    No. He lives with them. He is one of them. He talks to them,and he tries to connect with them. Everyone that isn't the main character is a cardboard character. No character matters as much as the main one…That's why they are the main character.

    @5:45 Female joker is already canon. Martha Wayne is Female joker. As far as black joker, you know full well, your SJW ass would be like "Oh why the Joker gotta be black?! Cause he's a villain?! Just like the white man to make the villain a black male! REEEE" Don't even act like that wouldn't happen…Also we need to stop taking established characters and changing their, race/gender/sexual orientation to be a token representation…Weren't you just talking about that? People just need to make their own new heroes and villains, and stop piggy backing off the success of others.

    @7:16 "So many of the films I just listed, both star nonwhite, and nonmale main characters, and were given far less investment, and publicity than Joker, and that probably isn't a coincidence."
    No shit…They aren't the Joker. Lol hello?

  • 19:44 see, this is exactly why even though i think your interpretation of the film is valid, i think you're giving the filmmakers way too much credit here. the director of this film has specifically alluded to the fact that he wanted to make a movie that would make ~sjws~ mad, regardless of anything else he may have originally wanted to say with it. it pushes this idea that mass shooters are automatically marginalized, disenfranchised, and/or mentally ill, when, like you said, we know that's a scapegoat and not the case. the men who commits these shootings are people affected by the patriarchy, yes, in terms of toxic masculinity, but they also tend to be by in large proud white supremacists, sexists, etc. and the news almost always sweeps this under the rug without giving a shit about actually mentally ill people. if this film had done something like, have arthur portray himself to be mentally ill while later revealing that that wasn't the case/an in-universe justifier for his actions, then it would have had something to say. but as it is, it really just reads like taxi driver if taxi driver wasn't a cautionary tale.

  • The woke obsession with framing everything as race and gender is exactly what derailed Occupy. Rather than solidarity among the 99% we had people arguing over oppression points for status within the 99%

  • Watch a Jack Saint video if you want to abdicate the very idea of personal responsibility and agency, blaming everyone but yourself for all your ills.

    Because when you're feeling powerless, what you really need to hear is "yes, and you will be until you agree with me".

  • I just wanted to say that initially I was scared off of seeing this movie with all that paranoia about it being incel apologistic flying around and what not. Now, hearing you say good things about it (that I am actually interested in conceptually), I am ready to give it a chance. Thank you for your insights, it's always a pleasure.

  • Todd Phillips is nothing more than another comedian such as Jordan Peele or Donald Glover or the Russo Brothers trying to be taken seriously in their democrat/liberal/social justice discourse and 'cultural' activism (if this is even effective as one), poorly disguised as intelectual expression or a individual take on society.

    Now Kubrick, most of the time expressly impersonal in most of his movies, showed enough in Clockwork Orange how social services and institutions (even if black people are mostly employed by them or whatever) don't protect or save anyone as the super-heroes of real life, but keep feeding back with all of the marginals, unintegrated and the absolute majority of the truly mentally ill (mainly the sado-masochists) while the elite is made up of eccentrics of the remaining minority who got rid of all that but the diseases. I thought all this while remembering the torturously refreshing walk Alex had taken with his old friends.

  • And you remind me why you're one of my favorite creators. 🙂

    I don't even agree with you on Joker and thought it was waaaaaaay less than it could have been and a little boring in places.

    But yeah, sorry to pre-judge you, but I did think you'd join the "liberal choir" in denouncing it as the worst thing to ever happen to humanity.

    Bless your open mind.

    ….but you still don't understand Star Wars. And I wish you would. A mind like yours could bridge the gap.

  • A "SINCERE" conversation??? In this emotional cesspool we call the Internet? Yeah, right…. Keep deluding yourself!

  • I feel like the message was rather garbled in this movie: I went away from it confused and not a little bit disturbed, but that is mainly due to my own mental health problems that the movie brought to the front, rather than the movie's fault in itself

  • Just an observation with no real point but I noticed that about half of the speaking characters were people of color, but I may be over reporting that because I'm white. (Men tend to think a cast of 25% women is actually 50% and so on. So this could be a bias of mine.)

  • 5:44 not to be needlessly extra sjw here but if the joker is ever portrayed by a woman or an actor of colour in a hollywood movie then i could really only expect the movie itself and its production to be a nightmare that simply should never be

  • There is one problem with joker analysises like these. Joker didnt start a revolution or really even lead it. The revolts were the result of people being pissed at conditions and leaders failing to address them. He just becomes a figure head for people to rally behind cause he shot some rich asses that were attacking him. People are overattributing to arthurs character aspects that the narrative simply play as logical consequences of social policy and the general society is at fault attitude.

  • Why would I Unify over films I Don't want I'm Not a Suicide Squad Fan I Don't want JOKER MOVIES OR BIRDS OF PREY OR Batman VILLAIN Enterprises I Want Superman Green LANTERN CORP CYBORG THE FLASH GREEN ARROW Justice League 2 APACHE CHIEF MARTIAN MANHUNTER ETC ETC

  • where the divide lies i think is in the issue of framing. there are moments where Arthur's autistic coding and laughing tic were very clearly meant to be laughed at or seen as the source of humor. that along with Todd Phillips' comments as of late definitely made me question that the movie was operating in the good faith it seemed to be positing itself as. it wants audiences to think it's arthur fleck but really its just another murray franklin, laughing at us.

  • 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡

    🤡 M A S T E R P I E C E 🤡

    🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡

  • As a non-US resident, I am astounded by how few people realize that Joker is a movie about what you get when you give mentally unstable people guns instead of healthcare

  • To this day, the SJW thing STILL confuses me.

    I don't know what that means or why some people (Republicans mostly) seem to hate them so much. But regardless, I LOVED Joker and how it tackled how society screws virtually anyone who isn't rich; especially who are mentally ill.

    I would know, I've been picked on for having special needs since I was in 4th Grade

  • yesyesyes i agree
    even though it did skip over certain sectors which are important to bring into the discourse, i do not think that takes away from the clear message about CLASS and the fact that the MYTH that every person in this country is somehow born with opportunity leads to the stepping on and crushing of the human spirit and an attitude of “they deserve it because they could have tried harder”. imo this film is a good start for a discussion that needs to be a bit broader but it does a good job. AND joaquin phoenix’s performance is some of the best acting i’ve ever seen.

  • i like the idea that he is a representation of the underclass being pushed to breaking point but that doesn’t explain him walking away in slow motion smoking a cigarette after his murders. incels won’t read him as an allegory they’ll read him as a rad dude

  • You forgot to analyse the hallucinations, it leaves you thinking if all of the movie really took place, if the characters presented were shown to us from his perspective and not at face value.

  • I sort of get where people are coming from when they say this movie plays into the trope of demonizing the mentally ill but… I don't really feel like his mental illness is really what caused him to do the things he did. It might have exacerbated things but his mental illness is mainly just the pathological laughter and the depression/PTSD from abuse. I don't think it's ever really implied that he killed people simply because he was "crazy".

  • y'know i was willing to not judge you too harshly for the whole sjw thing but then you brought up raid shadow legends and now i want to strangle you!

  • When the Joker Health Ledger died , another joker rose from the ashes ….
    much like a Phoenix.

    PS. check out my workout clips!….please.

  • recently my country was in a massive strike organied by the indigenous organizations because the government incresed the price of gasoline, it was incredible the fake news that the media was creating so the protesting people would look like violent savages, this involved inducing racism and xenophobia and a division in the ountry, thankfully the indigenous people won over the presidentand the decree was repealed. This movie in a part I think can make people understand their pov, but again literally half of the country just thinks they were savages

  • Can't a movie just be a movie these days?? The film is set in the 1980s, but golly gee, it didn't address the racial and social disparities of the day. WHO CARES?! I used to go to movies to be entertained, not preached at by the dubious moral masters of today. What is it with media today? Must you ruin everything, must everything be about the sins of the white race, whether real or imagined? Leave us alone – let us enjoy a movie for its entertainment value only, or you will continue to lose your audience.

  • Joker needed to be filled with more juvenile humor like a Marvel film. Good guy should be established as good and bad guy should be clearly established as bad. I should have been handheld through the entire story without having to think for myself!

    -All of America

  • Not giving clear-cut direction in its storytelling is just called bad writing. If it actually had something subtle or nuanced to say, it wouldn't have had so many lines that sounded like a 7th grader was coming up with a closing line to an essay. And aping masterpieces with its looks doesn't mean it did the work to actually have something to say.

  • Hearing what you said about how one's actions might put their ideals into question brings to mind three figures that also fit well into this subject, two of whom are ALSO from DC comics.

    First, there's Amanda Waller; a woman so bent on keeping the safety of America in tact, she has no issues with committing heinous actions in order to achieve them. While she IS right about how all the supervillains are incredibly dangerous and that the Justice League could become a threat to humanity. It doesn't excuse the fact that she'd go as far as to blackmail, intimidate or even TORTURE people into doing what she wants.

    What really makes me laugh is that her excuse for all this is "it's for the greater good."

    Second; speaking of idiots who do heinous things for the "greater good," there's Wade Eiling. Like Waller, he also works for the government and has a mad belief that any power that rivals America's must be destroyed. He's so wrapped up in this belief that he exposes his body to an experimental serum that turns him into a hulking monster.

    After that, he goes on a rampage in the city; putting many innocent people in harms way…all to get the attention of Superman and the League. But instead, he gets the attention of non-powered heroes like Vigilante and Shining Knight.

    The latter not only calls Eiling out on his hypocrisy and proclaims his mad beliefs about power are morally wrong. But even though Shining Knight didn't win the fight against him, the people of the city manage to do so for him. One of them, an old woman openly questions how many people do people like Eiling need to kill to keep people safe?

    When Eiling tries to save his ass and claim that metahumans are the real issue, a kid says that he himself is the only metahuman in that area. In the end, Eiling reluctantly realizes he became what he always hated. But he defends himself by saying "you'll see you'll need the likes of me to protect you from THEM."

    To which, I mentally called BS on that. The day I need the help of soldiers like HIM is the day I actually WANT another operation.

    Lastly, there's Sakazuki Akainu of One Piece; a man all about "Absolute Justice…" a belief that states that all criminals must be punished, no matter how big or small their crimes are. He's so bent on destroying the evils of piracy, he'd stop at nothing to achieve it; even going as far as kill innocent people.

    Sure, Luffy and his crew may have stolen some treasure. But that can always be replaced, when you think about it. Akainu, on the other hand…he steals people's lives; something that ISN'T so easy to replace.

    So, much like with THIS version of the Joker; I wonder if the governments in the other examples are the real evils

  • If the Alt right and socialists ever realise they are fighting the same war against corporate enslavement and join forces, society will change! And something else: In the 80' people living in project housing were helpful to each other, social class was a stronger bond than race, so in some way, the totally eyelevelness between Arthur and his black neighbour was, not an attempt to gloss over tensions, they recial battle was just fought on a different front back then!

  • This review is retarded
    There is absolutely no political/marxist references in this movie, at least not as jack portrays it
    The only reference to capitalism being bad is the therapist scene, where the gvt decides to cut some therapy programs for fleck, and even in that scene, fleck implies that these programs never really helped him and was already on the path of delusion
    Any other possible political interpretation is derived from the fact that the protagonist is working class and the antagonists are upper class, and you just presupose that has some political undertones when it clearly doesn't, fleck's problem's are rarely related to his social condition and more often to his character and mental ilness
    For fuck's sake! The movie litteraly points that out to you! Showing how joker's apolytical murders became politicized by the media simply because the victims were upper class people and its even arguable that its this sence of presence and agency that ignites the spark in fleck and causes him to become the joker

  • I completely disagree with the assumption you make that marvel movies are proyecting a message of "the one true bad guy". Basically every movie on the MCU is about the mistakes of "good guys" and the responsibility they have to make it right.

  • I don’t agree with your take, but I think it’s just a side effect of the movie being pretty general about it’s going for. I thought the movie was fine, I’m one those people who were ambivalent about it.

  • sjw's seem split on this movie. half of them believe the movie is problematic because it lays down a blueprint to incels and white supremacists, the other half believes this movie paints an exact picture of the failings of american society

  • "They should have shown more statistics about how much of the working class is poor" instead of… what? Showing a lot of black people and POC all throughout the film wasn't enough?

    When well off whites gaslight lower class whites who they treat like shit, these same whites are then treated like shit by POC who see them as easy white targets. Then you make a movie that shows this aaaand… what happens? A privileged white person complains on YouTube about how the portrayal of race was inadequate lol. Jesus christ you fuckers have no idea what it means to be working class.

  • Keep telling yourself that this film fits your lefty horseshit victim way of life perfectly.

    "We live in a Society HURRR HURRR HURRRR!"
    Teenaged Antifa twats….let 2020 be the bell.

  • i dont care about super hero stuff and there is a 0% chance i will watch this movie…. but holy shit did they cast the joker well that dude's face is perfect

  • No I don't think the joker movie is based off of the killing joke. Inspired maybe but the only similarity between the characters is they're crazy and comedians

  • You are as programmed and indoctrinated as any conservative political ideologue, my friend.
    People like yourself – and your political opponents – abuse and/or ignore the Arthur Flecks of the world, each and every day.
    You only 'care' about them when it is politically expedient.
    Once you've used them, you drop them, abuse them – and, ignore them – all over, again.
    Then, when anyone – black, white, or other – goes on a spree of violence, you are shocked and cannot understand why such people 'go postal'.
    Instead of looking into the mirror for answers, both of you blame the violence on your political opponents.
    …and, use the violence to justify your own hubris and self-righteousness.

  • Jack: Joker is actually a film satirizing the inherently toxic environment that is late stage capitalism
    Also Jack: This video is sponsored by Raid Shadow Legends

  • "a riot is the language of the unheard" – MLK
    doesn't need ideals or politics or even coherency, it just wants to be heard.

  • The biggest difference between joker and other political comic book movies is that joker doesn't try too hard. It's natural, and the story revolves around it. Unlike the one marvel movie that spats unnecessary feminist agendas at our faces just because it's a story with a powerful woman in it.

  • While I do have some not insignificant political divergences from you, I have a lot of respect for you.
    Unlike many "SJW" youtubers, you sound sincere and honest in your videos and are capable of nuance (Peter coffin, philosophytube and contra are to me very good examples of people willing to lie and misrepresent for the sake of their narrative).

    I have a slightly different reading of the portrayal in that movie than yours. His mental illness is the cause of bullying and his social difficulties but not the violence. He is not lashing out because of his illness but because of the way he is treated. This can be seen with murray, he was not planning on hurting anyone, just killing himself, but once again he was pushed. Apart from the doctor at the end all of his violence is exclusively reactionary to the way he is being treated

  • a point brought up by a friend of mine regarding the portrayal of race in the film: no black character in the entire movie is named. they are literally the invisible people of Gotham

  • well good job on giving this video a funny title, but i had to turn of when you started talking about systematic oppression. i'm latino, and i grew up in new york during this time period and someone like you is last person who should giving their option on what is appropriate.

  • It is so weird. I am russian and the message about poverty gets lost for a lot of audience here.
    Just because our hospitals almost never look like Arkham Hospital. It's prestine, it's huge.
    Gotham looks like a regular big city.
    It's at the same time rearly spocken about horrible living conditions in some areas and we discuss this things at the dinner. Like, yeah that's reality.
    Sure, Gotham looks grim but not poor to us

  • That's what happens when you try to put people in charge of lives. All government systems are evil. Both Democrat and Republican. Socialist and capitalist. It's not the system we need and fooling yourself to one side or the other as the solution is part of the problem. Sorting these things out on small community scales is how to provide individual care, with a larger system who's only purpose is to make sure that supplies are stable.

    People are not equations, tools, and figures. No man is greater or Lesser than another, we are all made in the image of God. Those you keep trying to put Man in charge of an issue, we need Jesus.

    Have Jesus our King and Lord as our moral ruler, disbanding all weapons, getting rid of infringing laws to control, love and help each other.

    Yup, strong communication, communities, Christan morals, and families. Simple as that.

  • there is actually an alternative universe where bruce wayne is the one murdered in the alley and it turns his mother to becoming joker and his father to becoming batman in the flashpoint paradox so the sjws have been at it already!! (please read humour into that last bit)

  • As a black guy I was taken aback when the black people in the film were presented having important positions that require a lot of education like social worker and psychologist, in an age where they were hit the hardest than any other group because of reaganism. Of course I kept silent about it because I would be marked as the oversensitive black dude of the group. Thank you for bringing this up.

  • i think people are reading wayyyyyyy to much into this movie. HINT: it's made by a capitalist entity with the aim of making money. HINT 2: the director has already explained what the movie is about.

  • 5:45 I would say creating a female version or a black version of a very well known character like the Joker is the lazies shit ever, why should these be canon? Not giving females or black people their own original characters is "problematic" 😛 why do you think that just gender or race swapping is okay?

  • What I took from the film was a story about people who lack empathy, and how that contributes to society as a whole. Every time Arthur gets demeaned or hurt in the movie anybody involved could choose to stand up for him or at least acknowledge his being mistreated. There are few instances where characters explicitly act on empathy. Arthur takes care of his mother and their relationship before Arthur learns about her past seems like a genuinely loving one and is the biggest indicator, at least to me, that Arthur had the capacity to be a good person. Then later on in the movie, Arthur spares the life of the only person who was nice to him. It’s left to interpretation whether he and Sophie live, but the movie goes out of it’s way to not show people who were, at least in Arthur’s mind, good people be explicitly harmed.

  • I pretty much agree with your interpretation of the movie. I really liked it, I'd even go so far as to call it a masterpiece. Next to this video I was suggested so many videos like "SJWs triggered by Joker," "SJWs want to ban Joker", etc. Now, I'm pretty much subscribed to every SJW on youtube and I didn't see any outrage there…

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